How can a child tell his friends that his father is also his grandfather? How will this affect him psychologically and socially? Well, in Australia, a father and his daughter are having a sexual relationship and have a baby girl. This child is their 2nd one, as their first passed on due to complications at birth.
Well, nature does work that way, does it? It prevents inbreeding, for a reason!
However, who are we to judge this couple. They bring along atypical reasons for this bond.
So the story goes that father and daughter were separated at birth and only met 30 years later!
John Deaves, 61, appeared on the TV show 60 Minutes with daughter Jenny, 39, and nine-month-old Celeste - to whom he is both father and grandfather.
Last month a judge banned them from having sex with each other and revealed they had a child in 2001 who died.
But they insisted on the programme that they were "normal intellectual adults".
Mr Deaves said they both "had careers, had a normal life like everybody else".
He added: "But [we have] fallen in love with each other when we are biologically related, when we've discovered each other later in life."
Mr Deaves had left the family home when his daughter Jenny was a baby, and did not see her again for 30 years.
When the couple met, in 2000, they began a sexual relationship.
Ms Deaves told 60 Minutes she began to see John as a man first and a father second.
"I was looking at him, sort of going, oh, he's not too bad. Like you might look at a man across the bar at a nightclub," she said.
"John and I are in this relationship as consenting adults. We are just asking for a little bit of respect and understanding."
The couple each pleaded guilty to two charges of incest last month and were banned from having sex with each other.
How do you guys feel about this issue? Should they maintain their relationship despite what the law says? Is it MORAL?
Updates: This is the latest video talking about the probable congenital defects for the child.
52 comments:
Every situation is different. In this case, I think should let them be, they are consenting adults
I feel so too, they are old enough plus, they weren't together for 30 years, it's hard to rebuild father daughter bond
reminded me of the brother-sister couple that sued the german government to recognise their sexual relationship.
i feel this is really really sick..i'm ok with relationships among cousins..but siblings & parents? isn't that, how u say it, a bit too close?
wat's this world coming to, man?
I think in this instance, they really knew each other as lovers before they found out they were related.
Although trying to have a kid has implications for the baby - and that part I'm not sure I'd agree with.
I have no idea how they reconcile the fact that they are father and daughter while going on to have sex with each other.
Don't alarm bells go off, or some sense of shame and even disgust creep in that you're having sex with your own father/daughter?!
Sure, they've been separated for 30 years, but that does not erase the fact that they are related intimately.
These two have obviously willfully shut down their moral antennas to fulfill their lust.
For starters, i've never respected 60mins as a credible news source in Australia, nor for the fact that they love highlight sensationalist stories like this, and for what reason? (i don't think they're trying to expand one's thinking, but merely getting more audience views and advertising dollars)
regardless, yes, they are consenting adults. but i really wonder on what grounds we're basing our morality on the moment we use the term 'consenting adults' it's a real slap in the face for those who really know what that term means and sounds more like a disclaimer or get out of jail for free card.
why am i so hard handed? because the whole concept of 'parental love' is lost to this. if the man loved her as a daughter, he would not approve of this sexual relationship.
although they state that it's not a parental love they feel or experienced, is that enough justification to love her as you would love another stranger?
sometimes love is not getting what you want, but giving it up for the benefit of the other party, whether they will ever see it or not.
they use all the right words to argue their case in today's post modern, relative culture. but just because you feel it, doesn't mean it's there.
i think is that if nature tried to stop you once, someone from above is trying to tell you SOMETHING.
like, perhaps....... STOP.
tengkufriz: I agree that it is a bit "sick" in some sense, but if you consider the fact that they never saw themselves as biologically related since they were separated, perhaps that could be an excuse for them to fall in love?
I mean, it could never happen to me, but I guess... people differ in different circumstances.
anonymous: the kid was born healthy that's the thing. We would expect genetic abnormalities considering the genetical similarities between them. BUT remember their first child passed away from congenital defects!!
sicarii: that's why I say, it could never happen to me, no matter what the circumstance. Yea, I think you are right though, the probably were physically attracted to one another from the onset.... but STILL!!??!?!
Brian: Yea, probably they sensationalize the news (the need ad money afterall!) haha... but yea I do see your point that if a father truly loved a daughter (however he defines loves) -- how can he "violate" her in that way? The more I re-read your points (yea u so cheeeem)... the more I found what you said salient.
If he really cared for her and their future child, he would forgo this relationship. It's not like she's the only woman left in the world and without him, the human race would cease to exist. BAH.
Wendy: Can you imagine if the 2nd baby died too, how many (more) deaths would it take for nature to say "STOP, DAMMIT!"?
But with that said, I guess as a nation develops,we should be more open minded, cuz even if we resist change, it's still gonna hit us like a ton of bricks! BAH!
There was a case yesterday in Utah, I think, or somewhere thus. A sect of polygamous/incestuous splinter Mormons. Anyways, this happens quite a bit, there was a case in JB, somewhen back, where a seperated-at-childhood pair of siblings got married, had kids, got forcibly seperated by the state, etc.
For those who talk about nature - there's a mechanism that makes us find others with similar DNA unattactive (yes, someone did a study). If these folk find their children attractive, it's nature's failure, really.
It's right to talk about it - I think they show guts in coming out. But what they did in having an incestuous relationship as adults was wrong. They should have stopped after the first date and then again after the first miscarriage. Any couple who decides to bring a baby into the world outside of marriage needs counselling at least.
Their justifications (eg- 'he seemed so nice' and 'we are normal adults') are disingenuous and smack of philosophical relativism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism).
A good comparison can be made to the guy who received a heart transplant and 12 years later committed suicide (http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/04/man-receives-heart-from-suicide-victim.html). Read it - the organ donor had committed suicide, and the recipient began dating and eventually married the donor's wife. Two men, one heart, one wife, both died by the very same method of suicide.
They didn't have children, but come on, don't you think that couple should have had some counselling before the marriage was registered?
My point is that our values and laws haven't caught up with the possibilities of the new century. We live in a world where it's ok to genetically breed new creatures and then seek patents on them - while at the same time it is legal for Muslim and Mormon men to have four wives. Society should evolve.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-gay, against single Mom's or even against organ donor/recipient relationships, I just think that society should provide a better regulatory framework to protect kids.
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT ADULTERY/FORNICATION?
1. Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:13-15 (in Context) Exodus 20 (Whole Chapter)
2. Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9-11 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)
3. Deuteronomy 5:18
Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
Deuteronomy 5:17-19 (in Context) Deuteronomy 5 (Whole Chapter)
4. Proverbs 6:32
But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
Proverbs 6:31-33 (in Context) Proverbs 6 (Whole Chapter)
5. Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jeremiah 3:7-9 (in Context) Jeremiah 3 (Whole Chapter)
6. Jeremiah 3:9
And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jeremiah 3:8-10 (in Context) Jeremiah 3 (Whole Chapter)
7. Jeremiah 5:7
How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.
Jeremiah 5:6-8 (in Context) Jeremiah 5 (Whole Chapter)
8. Jeremiah 7:9
Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
Jeremiah 7:8-10 (in Context) Jeremiah 7 (Whole Chapter)
9. Jeremiah 23:14
I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Jeremiah 23:13-15 (in Context) Jeremiah 23 (Whole Chapter)
10. Jeremiah 29:23
Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 29:22-24 (in Context) Jeremiah 29 (Whole Chapter)
From King James Version
1. BATH-SHEBA (BATHSHEBA) » Adultery of (2 Samuel 11:2-5)
2. COPULATION » See ADULTERY
3. CRIMINALS » See various crimes, such as ADULTERY, ARSON, HOMICIDE, etc
4. FORNICATION » See ADULTERY
5. HARLOT (PROSTITUTE) » See ADULTERY
6. HARLOTRY » See ADULTERY
7. LASCIVIOUSNESS » See ADULTERY
8. LICENTIOUSNESS » See ADULTERY
9. LUST » See ADULTERY
10. PROSTITUTION » See ADULTERY
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT FORNICATION?
2 Chronicles 21:11
Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
2 Chronicles 21:10-12 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 21 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 16:15
But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Ezekiel 16:14-16 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 16:26
Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbors, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.
Ezekiel 16:25-27 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 16:29
Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.
Ezekiel 16:28-30 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 23:17
And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Isaiah 23:16-18 (in Context) Isaiah 23 (Whole Chapter)
John 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:40-42 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mark 7:20-22 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 5:31-33 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 15:18-20 (in Context) Matthew 15 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her who is put away doth commit adultery.
Matthew 19:8-10 (in Context) Matthew 19 (Whole Chapter)
More results from King James Version
1. FORNICATION
2. SCOURGING » Prescribed in the Mosaic law for committing the sin of fornication (Leviticus 19:20; Deuteronomy 22:18)
3. SENSUALITY » See FORNICATION
4. VOWS » INSTANCES OF » Of Job, not to entertain thoughts of fornication (Job 31:1)
5. WOMEN » INSTANCES OF » Dinah, in her fornication (Genesis 34:1,2)
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT FORNICATION?
2 Chronicles 21:11
Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
2 Chronicles 21:10-12 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 21 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 16:15
But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Ezekiel 16:14-16 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 16:26
Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbors, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.
Ezekiel 16:25-27 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 16:29
Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.
Ezekiel 16:28-30 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 23:17
And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Isaiah 23:16-18 (in Context) Isaiah 23 (Whole Chapter)
John 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:40-42 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mark 7:20-22 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 5:31-33 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 15:18-20 (in Context) Matthew 15 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her who is put away doth commit adultery.
Matthew 19:8-10 (in Context) Matthew 19 (Whole Chapter)
More results from King James Version
1. FORNICATION
2. SCOURGING » Prescribed in the Mosaic law for committing the sin of fornication (Leviticus 19:20; Deuteronomy 22:18)
3. SENSUALITY » See FORNICATION
4. VOWS » INSTANCES OF » Of Job, not to entertain thoughts of fornication (Job 31:1)
5. WOMEN » INSTANCES OF » Dinah, in her fornication (Genesis 34:1,2)
Totally not right to have a child and put them at a risk of genetic disorders.
sickkkk. and not in a good way! although if his daughter looked like nicole kidman temptation would be hard though haha.
i agree with what michael said about genetic disorders, i've read about it somewhere
People like to read sensational news. Is blogging about this any different from 60mins airing such stories?
That being said, its human nature to try to justify something even if its morally wrong. Kinda hard to admit you are doing something wrong but are doing it because you want to right?
Anyway, my personal opinion is that you shouldn't even bother to ask the question in the headline.
All I would like to say is,
"The World is ending!!!"
I can imagine two people falling in love if they didnt know they're father and daughter. But before they decide to have a child together, in addition to genetic disorders shouldnt they also have considered how messed up it would be for the kid to grow up and find out his dad is also his grandpa? If they had adopted a child it'd be less dramatic but still an embarassing truth the kid will have to live with. It's also very stupid because they both know that incest is ilegal so they can go to jail and have their child taken away from them.
And I dont understand how the woman can stay in the relationship after finding out the guy is her biological father who left 30 years ago and never bothered to contact her since. Maybe I'm too quick to judge, maybe he had his reasons for having been an absent father, but I still think it's weird that there's no awkwardness between them after the fact. Finding out your lover is your dad is a huge revelation, it changes the situations and should change your emotions too.
I dont think I can call it "love" if it only involves lust in the equation. By stating that they are both consenting adults they're basically saying 'well, he/she doesn't mind having sex with me, her daughter/father. so why should i be bothered?' ie. being selfish and irresponsible.
noctune: Perhaps nature isn't so perfect afterall huh?
Bill: I just read the news about the heart transplant case! That was a very interesting blog site! Another one to add on my feed! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter. I'm all for protecting children as well, many times adults make decision without thinking out the effect on innocent parties. Thankfully there still are a handful of people out there who think like u!
qazi: Being in a christian country like american doesn't mean all its citizens embrace the faith... :(]
michael: Inbreeding does increase future chance of ADHD or other congenial illness of an offspring.
Rainer: haha... I like the way u inject humour in your comment. But I do agree with Michael though...
anonymous: My intent was not to sensationalize the news, but to actually gt feedback of what singaporeans think. How much are we willing to accept as a society? Sorry if I offended you.
Lupin: the world started ending the moment it begun!!
Juliana: yea I guess the victim of all this is the child. But as much as we should blame the men (yes we like to!), the woman should also be responsible for the act of bringing the child into the world. Comeon, the first child already died due to defects....
It is totally "NO" for me. If you can't find an answer just go the bible and see what the word of GOD has to say.
Totally No excuse to continue this relationship, Estee!
anonymous: I have a feeling anonymous is one of my parents..... is it u, mum? dad?
So, we've all genetically diverged far enough from the 1st humans to appear so that we aren't all related . . .
I would like to respond to the person who said,
"Don't alarm bells go off, or some sense of shame and even disgust creep in that you're having sex with your own father/daughter?!"
The simple answer is NO. Alarm bells did not go off, nor have I felt any 'shame or disgust' in my 5 year relationship with my biological father, or, as I prefer to call him, my "sperm donor". We met for the first time when I was 34 and he was 60. No one was more surprised than I was when we ended up falling in love. Today we are very happy and committed to our relationship. The only thing that is unusual about us is our 26 year age difference. Aside from that, we are like any other couple.
Genetic Sexual Attraction often occurs when a person is separated from their biological relative for one reason or another (usually adoption)In my case, the separation occurred before I was born.
How can anyone know what they would do in the same situation until they have lived through it themselves?
Believe me, I did not ask for this to happen to me, and I'm absolutely certain these people did not ask for this to happen to them either. They certainly don't deserve to be scorned or ridiculed just because they are in love with eachother.
Oh, and regarding the issue of the child that died... it was unrelated to the fact that the parents were biologically father & daughter. Obviously their second child is perfectly healthy.
Sadly babies die all the time, even in non-GSA relationships. My first child was stillborn, and my first husband and I were not biologically related.
this is ridiculous. A father is supposed to be a role model for his child.It's such a shameful act which has disgraced the relation b/w a father n his daughter.
I fully agree that a father should be a role model to his child.
However, a woman in her thirties is hardly a child to a man she never met, and a "sperm donor" is not a "father" except purely in the biological sense. My "sperm donor" is no more a father to me than any other 65 year old man.
I suppose it is understandable that someone who has not personally experienced the GSA phenomenon would be quick to condemn this type of relationship by calling it shameful or disgraceful, since most people are quick to condemn that which they do not or cannot understand.
In our situation, we have never seen ourselves as father and daughter despite our biological relationship. Before we met for the first time we never imagined that there was a possibility that we would fall in love with one another but for some unexplainable reason we were irresistably drawn to one another by a force neither one of us could explain.
Almost 6 years later we are still very much in love and are both completely committed to our relationship "for better or for worse". We consider ourselves extremely blessed to have found someone with whom we can share our lives and grow old with.
There is nothing disgraceful or shameful about that.
They're adults! They can decide for themselves who they love. Who are we to try to stop their love? We should all get out of their bedroom. It is just fear and prejudice in our society that makes people anti-incest. There is a deeper love-bond between members of the same family than there is between unrelated people, and it is natural to express love by having sex.
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